Bob
says:
you read that article I gave you? [This
is the article I was referring to. It
is about the recent Pledge of Allegiance court ruling.]
Gary says:
yes... very good
Gary says:
even made the wife read it
Bob says:
haha
Bob says:
it was a bit light on some of the reasons why things
are the way they are, but nevertheless, it was good
Gary says:
yeah... it amazes me how some fundamental things about
our government are not properly taught in school...
like the separation between church and state
Gary says:
founding fathers agreed on that for a reason... it's
stupid
Bob says:
Man... religious people should LOVE Church/State separation..
after all, it's there to protect not only the government
from religion, but religion from the government.
Gary says:
exactly
Bob says:
Lately, I've become even more cynical and contemptive
of religion than I used to be, and I've begun to shift
from a Sagan-like viewpoint to a more Dawkins-like
viewpoint.
Gary says:
uh-oh
Bob says:
Dawkins believes that religion is a disease like smallpox
or aids... but instead of the body, it infects the
brain
Bob says:
and he maintains it has done more damage to humanity
than any virus or bacteria ever has
Bob says:
he calls it a meme disease
Bob says:
I'm not *quite* that radical
Gary says:
yeah... i've read up on his meme theory a bit
Bob says:
but I'm getting there with crap like this going on
Gary says:
i should order his books... there's another book devoted
totally to his meme theory too
Bob says:
ya
Bob says:
The
Meme Machine
Bob says:
excellent book
Gary says:
yeah
Gary says:
it's on my wish list
Bob says:
I read it at school... kid in one of my classes let
me borrow it. I should probably take it off my wish
list...
Bob says:
I guess it's tough for me to let go of the "to
each his own" kind of attitude Sagan had... but
when I see a planet ravaged by racism, pseudo science,
bigotry, repressive governments, suicide bombers,
and the like... I start to see that "to each
his own" only applies to stuff that can't hurt
me... and religion CAN hurt me
Bob says:
People often reply with "but religion has done
so many good things"... regardless of whether
that's true or not, why can't we do those same things
WITHOUT religion? Get all the good without the bad,
ya know?
Bob says:
And what REALLY pisses me off is when somebody tells
me that my life is somehow devoid of reason or point
because I don't believe in God, or that I'm immoral
or something. Well guess what, doing "good"
because of a promise of immortality or the fear of
hell makes them a worse person than somebody who does
good just because they feel it helps humanity.
Gary says:
i understand. Religion has always been there to help
me, but only because of the faith i put into it...
not the things that I can interpret from it's readings.
I would never use religion as a means to get to some
sort of enlightened end... it would just be a guiding
light or a "tool"... the means to my end
is my own friggin intellect and everything else that
my "god" has given me...
Gary says:
i view atheists and religious people the same as long
as they still freely use their own intellect to decide
what's right and wrong... the bible and korans of
this world were never written as absolute rules...
just guidelines.. I went to a catholic school and
was still taught that, and I'm very happy they allowed
us our own free thought
Bob says:
but that's just it... atheists (and skeptics in general)
believe in things because of the evidence that supports
them... religion is about faith, which, by definition,
is the belief in something without evidence, and often,
in the face of evidence. THAT is exactly what's wrong
with our society.
Gary says:
faith is a useful tool as long as people don't use
faith as a basis for IGNORING the evidence
Bob says:
why is faith useful?
Gary says:
which i hate
Bob says:
why should I ever believe in something for which there
is no evidence
Bob says:
Don't get me wrong, I don't think there are "absolutes"...
but I refuse to believe in something simply because
somebody tells me to.
Gary says:
i use faith for plenty of things... it can help with
anxiety and depression (to name things I've used it
for in the past few months) among other things. Most
principles of religious faith have no, or very little,
supporting evidence, but they have no real evidence
to disprove it either
Gary says:
true... i don't want to push my beliefs on anybody
that is comfortable in their life without them
Gary says:
i'm fully aware that my beliefs and the things i have
faith in may be wrong... or may not exist at all
Bob says:
But that's just it, there is a LOT of evidence to
disprove much of what's in the Bible... but regardless,
if there was no evidence to disprove, but none to
prove either, I wouldn't believe in it. Same goes
for everything else.
Bob says:
For example... why believe in God?
Bob says:
What evidence is there to suggest there is a supreme
being that has created all that we know.
Gary says:
well, I believe in a God because logic tells us that
everything is governed by something else... there
is a managed order to everything, so why not the same
for life in general. I feel that "something"
(God) has to govern our very existence
Bob says:
There are plenty of reasons for people to make up
such a being... whether it is to coup with their lives,
or to control other people... so there is a lot to
suggest the opposite. (Not to mention the logical
paradoxes of God)
Bob says:
So what governs God?
Bob says:
That's like saying the universe is too complex to
have come from nothing, therefore God made it. But
if God created the universe, he must be at least as
complicated as the universe, so what created God?
Bob says:
Why not skip a step?
Bob says:
At least until we have some evidence to suggest other
wise.
Gary says:
exactly... nobody knows... maybe god is the absolute
end... which logic cannot comprehend, which is why
God can't really be explained or proven... which is
where faith steps in
Bob says:
but that's my point
Bob says:
why believe in something for which there is no evidence
Bob says:
why can't we just say "I don't know"...
and then do our best to figure it out
Gary says:
many of us do... but in the meantime it is consoling
and comforting to have faith in whatever it is
Bob says:
Why?
Bob says:
How about finding comfort in the idea that we are
learning more about our existing every day, and some
time we may know how the universe came to be.
Gary says:
well, you could ask why for hours... nobody can tell
you a real reason. I am fairly religious and always
ask myself "why do I believe?". To be honest,
I can't really explain it, but I do
Gary says:
that would be very comforting
Bob says:
well, there are lots of reasons for you to believe
Bob says:
it is likely part of our biology
Bob says:
a "god gene" of some sorts
Bob says:
or at the very least, a meme
Gary says:
true...
Bob says:
in my opinion, a very sinister meme
Bob says:
one that has done a great deal of damage to humanity
Bob says:
See, if having some comfort is all believe in God
resulted in, then I wouldn't have a problem... but
believe in an almighty power automatically leads to
many other believes
Bob says:
hence the establishment of religion
Gary says:
everything can be damaging if harnessed by the stupid.
There have been plenty of stupid people using and
manipulating religion and faith for sinister acts...
but I don't use them that way, so there's no harm.
Religion doesn't cloud my mind... but I can't say
it enhances it either
Bob says:
but if you believe in something without evidence,
is that not a cloud?
Gary says:
well, i don't really believe in it... i have faith
in it, which allows me to question it. My believe
in Christianity is not absolute...
Bob says:
Tell me this, if you had never heard of the Bible,
and nobody had ever said anything about Christianity
or religion, do you think you would believe in God?
Bob says:
Think about it, your concept of God is at least partially
shaped by the BIble, right?
Gary says:
yes... i believe it is human instinct to believe in
a god... whether it be your father or some mountaintop
or a star
Gary says:
yep... that's just because i've been taught that...
the Bible's interpretation of God is a possible answer
i'm willing to accept until proven otherwise... but
i don't want people,e to accept it and stop looking
for other answers until i have absolute proof
Bob says:
Ok... there is a Dragon in my garage. Do you believe
me? If not, why? Nobody has proven me wrong.
Gary says:
then I'd have to go see for myself
Bob says:
it's invisible
Gary says:
if I trusted you enough, and if enough people have
seen this dragon, I may be inclined to believe in
it
Bob says:
nobody has seen it
Bob says:
because it's invisible
Gary says:
if it's invisible, then it would have to have some
sort of affect on something tangible for me to believe
in it
Bob says:
nope, it's ethereal... it exists in a plain just out
of phase with our dimension
Bob says:
it has no effect on the world around it
Bob says:
but it's there
Gary says:
then, no... i would not believe in it. I believe in
a God because obviously something has to be there...
whether it be a mathematical equation or a very small
mouse in an air bubble with a kewl remote control...
there has to be an answer by logic...
Gary says:
until the real answer is found
Bob says:
But you have just as much evidence for God as I do
for my Dragon
Bob says:
Why is it obvious that God exists?
Bob says:
Why must there be something there?
Bob says:
Again, there is a Dragon in my garage, and if you
believe in God, you must believe in my Dragon under
the same reasoning... you cannot prove otherwise
Bob says:
You see the logical fallacy?
Bob says:
The belief in something is *only* warranted when there
is evidence to support that belief... saying "until
you prove otherwise" makes no sense
Bob says:
Simply because we cannot currently comprehend the
source of existence and the universe does not provide
some kind of evidence for a creator.
Gary says:
no... because your dragon is not something that will
control my life... it is something that would affect
it. Your dragon could be comparable to Jesus (although
there is proof of Jesus), but god would be a governing
force... like an equation for everything
Bob says:
Yes it is
Bob says:
it control the weather
Gary says:
well, if we base our existence on the logic we have
founded, then there has to be a god
Bob says:
why?
Gary says:
there is a good book called "the
mind of god" that i can let you
borrow... it's really good
Bob says:
All logic is reducible to 1 = 1... we need God for
1 = 1?
Gary says:
no... we need the equal sign
Bob says:
For a long time, we could not comprehend how life
arouse out of non-life... but now, thanks to the work
of many heretics like Darwin, we know how it probably
happened. No God is needed... no designer... just
the laws of physics.
Gary says:
right... so god may be physics
Gary says:
god is just a governing force
Gary says:
if that is proven... Christianity gets thrown out
for me
Bob says:
string theory shows that physics is perhaps a result
of the interaction of fibers that make up the universe
Bob says:
why not throw out Christianity right now?
Gary says:
what makes the fibers interact?
Bob says:
you throw out my Dragon
Bob says:
we don't know
Gary says:
so what we don't know may be god
Bob says:
I say that if you believe in God, you believe in my
Dragon.
Bob says:
How can you reason out of that?
Bob says:
My Dragon is what controls the universe.
Bob says:
he just happens to like my garage...
Bob says:
(by the way, this is a Sagan argument... he wrote
a chapter in one of his books called "There is
a Dragon in my garage"
Gary says:
your dragon will not control what happens out side
of it's "realm" (being your garage). When
your Dragon gets control of my life and is able to
govern things which i have no control over, then yes...
i would believe your Dragon is my god
Bob says:
Why?
Bob says:
He does
Bob says:
He controls everything
Bob says:
He is what makes your heart beat
Bob says:
prove otherwise
Bob says:
he controls the laws of physics
Bob says:
prove otherwise
Gary says:
i don't need to prove otherwise because there is no
proof that he does any of this
Bob says:
EXACTLY
Bob says:
now replace "Dragon in my garage" with "God"
Bob says:
what's the difference?
Bob says:
the only difference is that the Bible uses the word
"God"... other than that, nothing
Bob says:
and of course, there are longer tales about "God"
than there are about my Dragon... but with no more
validity
Gary says:
god is not in my garage... he's not anywhere... he's
just an "it"... something that makes the
world go round. Whatever makes life and everything
around it possible will be my God
Bob says:
fine
Bob says:
That's my Dragon
Bob says:
My Dragon is everywhere to... which includes my garage
Bob says:
you see what flimsy ground your beliefs are on?
Gary says:
your feeding your dragon too much
Bob says:
you're making completely arbitrary distinctions
Gary says:
i've always known what flimsy ground my beliefs are
on... which is why the are beliefs
Bob says:
you agree my Dragon is a fallacy, but at the same
time affirm your version of my Dragon
Bob says:
hence the reason we should only believe in things
for which we have evidence
Gary says:
but your theories are on flimsy ground as well...
both sides can be debated in the same fashion and
really won't ever get anywhere until an answer is
found
Bob says:
how is mine on flimsy ground?
Bob says:
I believe in something when there is evidence to do
so
Gary says:
because you can't disprove a god... and i can't prove
a god
Bob says:
if new evidence comes around that suggests that my
old beliefs are crap, i move on
Bob says:
I guess you haven't seen my point at all
Gary says:
i have
Gary says:
but i've always known that point
Bob says:
but you keep saying that I haven't disproved God...
but you haven't disproved my Dragon... so BELIVE IN
MY DRAGON
Bob says:
if you're not willing to believe in my Dragon, you
should be asking yourself why you're so committed
to believing in your God.
Bob says:
And this brings us right back to the reason why we
shouldn't believe in things without evidence to do
so.
Bob says:
If you don't believe in something without evidence,
then you avoid these logical problems...
Bob says:
And you are far more likely to make the "right"
choices...
Bob says:
If you believe in God without reason, start doing
that in the rest of your life... believe that you
can fly... and jump out a window. (Or off the ground
might be a better idea).
Bob says:
You have no reason to believe you can fly, but what
the hell... you believe in God. :-)
Gary says:
well, even with my faith in beliefs, I'm still able
to make the right choices...
Gary says:
God seems logical... flying doesn't
Gary says:
doesn't
Bob says:
sigh
Gary says:
but i totally se what your saying
Bob says:
No you don't, if you did, you would be an atheist.
Bob says:
I'll give you "The
Demon Haunted World"... by Sagan...
that's the book with the Dragon in My Garage chapter.
Bob says:
Sagan explains these things a LOT better than I can
Gary says:
honestly... i'm not a big Sagan fan because i believe
he was clinically insane... but I did like Dragons
of Eden
Bob says:
why was he insane?
Gary says:
i'm gonna try to read more pf his stuff
Bob says:
why do you think he was insane?
Gary says:
hehehe... i don't think it's possible for somebody
to not believe in anything... and to be skeptical
about everything around him... Sagan was missing something
upstairs... maybe he's got everything right, but he
was definitely different than everyone else
Bob says:
not believe in anything?
Bob says:
He believed in many things
Bob says:
I agree he was in the minority... but I'm in that
minority too. I think the world would be a MUCH better
place if everybody was a skeptic.
Bob says:
Sagan just didn't believe in things for which there
was no evidence...
Bob says:
which is exactly the definition of a skeptic
Bob says:
www.skeptic.com
Bob says:
I'm a member.
Gary says:
ok... i'm a skeptic, but not THAT skeptical
Bob says:
Sagan did great things for science and society...
and, I fear, that there are only one or two "Sagans"
every 100 years or so
Bob says:
what do you mean "that" skeptical?
Gary says:
i would never devote myself to being a "skeptic"
Bob says:
Why?
Gary says:
although it may be fun
Bob says:
You would never devote yourself to making sure you
are making the best choices you can?
Bob says:
Seems strange.
Gary says:
i make the best choices i can without being an absolute
skeptic. I learn everything i can about things which
i believe in... if the shoe doesn't fit, i don't wear
it
Bob says:
no, I'm afraid you can't... that's the problem
Gary says:
i'm not automatically skeptical about things... and
if i am, i can still believe in them (like religion)
Bob says:
obviously there are times when you have to make a
choice without evidence either way... that's not being
non-skeptical... it's when you don't have to make
a choice, but do, and you choose regardless of the
evidence (or lack there of) when you're not being
a skeptic
Bob says:
believing in God, for instance, would violate skeptical
thinking
Bob says:
the word "skeptic" has gotten a bad connotation
because, largely, of religious zealots taking offense
at skeptics showing how stupid they are.
Bob says:
Think about science for a second... how far would
science get if they based their experiments or ideas
off faith rather than evidence? We would be as we
were 2000 years ago if we did that.
Bob says:
Science = Skepticism
Bob says:
they are one in the same
Bob says:
and, most likely, neither you nor I would be here
without science... and, therefore, without skepticism
Gary says:
there's plenty of scientific theory revolving around
god, though...
Bob says:
or, at the very least, we wouldn't be chatting on
MSN
Gary says:
hehehe
Bob says:
skepticism has done more for humanity than religion
or faith ever had... and there is a LOT of reason
and evidence to belief in it... but to have "faith"
instead shows there must be something wrong with that
line of thinking.
Bob says:
that's something else that I get a huge kick out of
Bob says:
what's one of the biggest signs your religion is kickin'
ass?
Bob says:
prophets... people who see the future, and attest
to your religion
Bob says:
Well guess what, science is pretty prophetic
Bob says:
Could religion tell you the very second Haley's comet
will appear 80 years from now?
Bob says:
I doubt it.
Gary says:
well, i definitely don't have respect for religion
undermining science... i try to find that thin red
line in-between the two
Bob says:
God very well could exist... I have no ideas... and
neither does anybody else. And until we have some
evidence to suggest otherwise, why not pursuit the
truth as much as possible, and not believe in things
for no reason
Bob says:
that's just it... there is not "line"...
there is science, and there is religion... there is
no overlap
Gary says:
i'll give you my "Mind
of God" book... very kewl stuff.
Doesn't try to prove or explain god, just explains
why something "godlike" has to exist"
Bob says:
religion is based on belief without evidence, science
is based on belief only from evidence.
Gary says:
i have 2 feet... i mingle the 2 for my own means
Bob says:
I will read it, but it's most likely full of the same
logical fallacies you've told me tonight.
Bob says:
if religion didn't exist, we would probably be about
2000 years ahead of where we are today
Gary says:
well, it's full of the same things i've told you tonight,
but in better detail so they can't be categorized
as fallacies
Gary says:
that point can be strongly argued
Gary says:
but not by me
Bob says:
haha... so if they're detailed, they can't be fallacies?
Bob says:
not really... the point can't really be argued at
all, but it is anyway
Gary says:
of course they can... but most anything can be a fallacy
Bob says:
of course, but some things aren't
Bob says:
and those are the things I choose to believe in
Bob says:
who is the book by?
Gary says:
hmmm... let me check
Gary says:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0671797182/
Bob says:
sigh... if this guy is claim science can prove God
exists, I'm gonna have an aneurysms while reading
it
Gary says:
hehehe... not "god" per-se... but a logical
explanation to everything that can be defined as "god"
Bob says:
Well, I agree there can be a logical explanation for
everything
Gary says:
it's good stuff... whether you believe what he says
or not, it's an interesting point of view
Gary says:
he uses a couple of angles... and methinks i will
read it again (it been a few years)
Bob says:
but to say that that explanation is "God"
makes no sense... of course, assuming you mean "God"
in the sense of the Christian God
Gary says:
no no no... i almost never mean god in a Christian
sense... hehe... should have said that earlier
Gary says:
that's half the reason why a scrutinize my own religion...
i can believe it's portrayal of Jesus, but not God.
Bob says:
well, you said you have faith in Christianity
Gary says:
it really baffels me sometimes
Bob says:
which means you must believe in the Christian God
Bob says:
in addition, one of the primary tenets of your religion
is not to question... the very act of questioning
means your going to hell... again, according to your
own religion
Gary says:
as the pope would have it... yes... but the new testament
never says that, which is why we were taught to question
in school
Bob says:
So why is the new testament right, and the old testament
wrong... is there an Key somewhere that I'm missing?
Bob says:
The new testament references the old testament quite
a lot...
Gary says:
our parents and their generation were taught from
the Baltimore Catechism.. so they go by that mind
manipulation baloney... but not me
Bob says:
if it "changes" God's will... doesn't that
suggest that God was wrong, and made a correction?
Doesn't that contradict the very nature of God?
Gary says:
the old testament is to be mildly interpreted methinks...
while the new testament is more of a traditional testament
Bob says:
Why? Where is the Key? Are there instructions?
Bob says:
What is your *reason* for this belief?
Bob says:
Is it not completely arbitrary?
Bob says:
Because it's a lot more convenient?
Bob says:
You should grab "How
We Believe" by Shermer...
Gary says:
well, science disproves much of the old testament,
so i had to change my belief in it based on that evidence.
The new testament really can't be disproved, so I
continue to believe in that until i have an absolute
answer
Bob says:
wow
Bob says:
you really haven't heard anything I've said
Gary says:
yes i have
Bob says:
So why don't you believe in my Dragon?
Gary says:
hehehe... it smells funny
Bob says:
seriously
Bob says:
Why don't you believe in my Dragon?
Gary says:
why don;t you believe in my faith?
Bob says:
If you believe in the new testament because science
has not disproved it, then you must believe in my
Dragon for the same reasons.
Gary says:
this debate can go nowhere until a concrete answer
can be formulated
Bob says:
why?
Bob says:
why can't you answer my question?
Gary says:
there is historical records of the new testament
Gary says:
that have not been adequately disproved
Bob says:
No, actually, all you have is a bunch of religious
figures saying it's true... there is no evidence that
the majority of it is actually true.
Gary says:
i can't answer because i can't type that fast
Bob says:
take your time
Bob says:
answer it
Bob says:
don't type anything else until you answer why you
don't believe in my dragon
Gary says:
ok
Gary says:
i don't believe in your dragon because i choose not
to believe in your dragon. I want to believe in a
God because I want to believe that there is something
greater than all this... something that controls all
of this. This is my belief... i will hold this until
swayed otherwise. Honestly... your dragon is not very
intruiging, and I have taken it into consideration
as I have "God", but **more**
Gary says:
feel your dragon is an inadequate answer to my world
Bob says:
So, in other words, because you "feel like it"
Gary says:
i have no basis for this... these are my educated
beliefs
Gary says:
because i feel like it... my feelings, again, are
well-educated feelings
Gary says:
more of a thought than a feeling
Bob says:
At least I got you to admit that... see, there is
no logical or reasonable reason to believe in God.
I don't see how you can accept that... I couldn't...
it woudl feel like I'm lying to myself
Bob says:
it's an infectious meme my friend
Gary says:
there is no logical reason not to believe in a god,
though
Bob says:
you've been infected... I wish I had the cure
Bob says:
YES THERE IS
Bob says:
there are MANY MANY MANY reasons
Bob says:
start by reading Shermer's book
Bob says:
er... actually
Bob says:
Sagan's book
Bob says:
I'll give it to you next time I see you
Bob says:
bring that Mind of God book
Bob says:
it sounds interesting
Gary says:
which one... i probably have it
Gary says:
ok
Bob says:
The
Demon Haunted World
Gary says:
we can debate more on Wed... me need sleep now
Bob says:
k
Bob says:
night
Gary says:
night
